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UCLA message boards are comparing Sean Miller to Lane Kiffin saying that they can both recruit but can't coach. I beg to differ but there is a little bit of truth to it this year. These are all Miller's guys so there's no excuses about the guys he inherited or was forced to take. Time to step up and prove them wrong Coach.
Well... Kiffins USC team has as much FB talent as any team ever has. IMO, Kiffins failure was epic. Millers AZ team, while seriously under achieving, is a bunch of not quite elite players (Solo, Parrom, Johnson) or Freshmen who took longer to develop than expected or may have been over rated.
We lack a real star or two and we lack experience.
IMO, Miller is still learning how to put it all together. Hs not there yet and I do not believe that he will be able to win big until he becomes a more versatile game coach. I think player retention and development are not yet firing on all cylinders. For every Williams there are two or three KNats, Mayes or Momo's.
"Arizona has no tradition" - Bill Walsh
"We have a tradition of kicking Bill Walsh's ass" - Teddy Bruschi
I saw on a message board once where Coach K was compared to Satan.
All you have to do is look at his time at Xavier to know that is absurd. You don't take a mid-major to the brink of the final four if you can't coach.
How come we manage to always get the McDonald's All Americans that turn out to be really overrated or never pan out??? Shakur, McClellan, Hassan, Jerrett, Ashley, etc. Even Chase and Bayless haven't been that successful.
Wine, "just when I thought your couldn't say anything dumber you go and....totally redeem yourself" Way to go Lloyd.
JK pal, but honestly that is probably your most objective post ever on this subject. Refreshing and fair to boot. Just curious though, who are your 2-3 Knats? You can't say Zues. He is too young and already 10x the player that knat ever dreamt of being. Momo was developing fine just got pushed out. Mayes, I honestly had written him off this year, but he is showing signs of old and with more playing time might have a really solid senior year. If he had not been hurt all of last year and been able to progress like he should have in his sophomore year, I wonder if we would have gone after Lyons at all. One injury may have really changed the face of our team.
This post was edited by CYCAT 13 months ago
I don't think you can count Jerrett and Ashley in this crowd yet. They are too young and are showing signs of being really good. Not every Macdonalds all american is going to be Kyrie Irving or Anthony Davis.
Bayless should have stayed at least another year. He could have used more time in college to hone his game. Had he stayed we would have been pretty tough that next year.
speaking of Miller coaching...mic'd up from 2010 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEfPGN_3fx8
Brad, if you remember the game against Cal right after this practice is where late in OT Momo several times got the ball on the baseline and drove, scored and got the +1... That was Momo's big game...
BEAR DOWN boys... The best is yet to come....
All Adams did was finish 7th in school history in scoring. He had an AWFUL final two months of his career, but was hardly a bust.
I also don't think you can put Chase and Bayless on that list at all.
Editor-In-Chief of Wildcat Sport Report and co-host of the Arizona football and basketball pre and postgame shows on 1490 and 104.9.
Nor can you put Ashley and Jerrett.
Well - DW developed nicely. And for every player that has had a normal progression under Miller, 2 or three have been flat or not progressed. Either not developed, not developed as expected, transferred, or otherwise failed to meet their potential.
I think Fogg, Lavender, Perry and Williams all exceeded their expectations under this staff. 4 I'd say have been highly successful.
Wise, Hill, Parrom, Johnson, & Lyons are all about where they were expected to be. 5 are doing what is expected, but not over achieving. C+, B- students, if you will.
Horne, Jacobsen, Judkins, Momo, KNat, Shumpert, Bejerano, Mayes, Chol, Jerret, Ashley, Zues (12) have all not lived up to expectations, transferred or have yet to really develop to the level they should be at. Athlon sports picked Ashley first team all PAC-12 in the pre- season. Zues was a unanimous second to Shabazz for top newcomer, pre-season. Jerrett was a McD AA, but didn't really have a huge impact. Hard to judge freshmen, hopefully they will develop more. Can't judge walk-ons or York who just did not have enough minutes. Chol may fall into that category as well. When he gets more than 2 minutes at a time, he starts actually doing something. Maybe Miller will notice that at some point.
So 4 up, 5 neutral and 12 down.
The fact is, Miller inherited a depleted roster, but three of his four biggest success stories were here when he got here (thanks Lute...errrr, I mean Josh). Some of Millers key recruits, i.e. the only true big man in his first three classes and his point guards, have not worked out well or stuck.
Plenty of this can be attributed the transition, but 4 years in, we should be recovered and yet next year is a rebuilding year, with an unproven newcomer at PG, the loss of three seniors, and one single senior on the roster, who likely will not start.
Next year is a far cry from a rebuilding year. Will be the favorite in the pac12 again and will be preseason top 10. TJ McConnell is actually very proven, more so than any other PG in Miller's tenure at Arizona. The more you talk the more you negatively influence your already tarnished reputation.
This post was edited by Beermancats 13 months ago
1. A10 - over rated. The very definition of east coast bias. Miller played exactly ONE ranked opponent in conference in his entire time, 5 years, at Xavier. ONE.
2. West Virginia upset #2 seed Duke so Xavier drew WV to reach the sweet 16 and BARELY won, in OT due to poor FT shooting by WV, not anything Miller did. From Wikipedia:
"Xavier, the third seed in the West, defeated seventh seed West Virginia, 79-75 in overtime thanks to two B.J. Raymond three-pointers in the final 78 seconds. Raymond scored all eight of his points in the bonus round after being held scoreless in regulation, and poor free-throw shooting by the Mountaineers, missing four out of six free throws, sealed the victory."
3. UCLA DISMANTLED Xavier int he Elite 8. 76-57. Wikipedia: "Overall, Xavier was held to 36% shooting from the floor while UCLA shot 56.8%." (Sound Familiar?)
Mid Major to the brink of something, but it wasn't the final four. They were only there due to one lucky OT win and they were 19 points away from the final four and never led that game.
You are correct about Miller's patterns from Xavier repeating themselves. The wins are close and the losses are often blowouts.
The problem with so many players with great potential is that they never stick around to develop their games. Then many of them go into the draft too early, where you are going up against a man who is 5-6 years older and has proven himself. Only the strong survive.
The college game and it's players overall is going to suffer as long as the NBA takes them and tries to develop them, which, they really don't do. They either make it early, or they are cut, and have a few years to friddle away whatever money they got up front.
When I first came to Arizona in 1988, most of it's players stayed 4 years, and many of them have done well. AAU, the NBA and all the other blood suckers around college basketball have turned college ball into somewhat of a farce .
'unproven' in my world means in an AZ uniform, against P12 competition. I have no doubt that he can be really great, but KNAT was the #54 recruit by some service and Shakur was the #1 PG in his class....Withey, Recker, Ebi.... we have a long tradition of counting our chickens...it would be nice to see someone actually pan out as projected.
I thought MIller got Hill, Parrom and Momo because he WAS here and because of USC's problems being under investigation.
I recall that Sean Elliott was not projected super high in the draft, but was definitely well regarded. But it was sooo unusual for a junior to be projected at all back then and it was thought that a senior year would always enhance draft status. I know he could have gone and in todays climate I am certain he would have.
He is not some high school kid that has never played D1 basketball. He has proven himself against top competition in the Atlantic-10 which unfortunately has proven to be as good of a conference as the Pac12 in recent years.
Here is all you need to know WK.
Of the 9 Centers and PFs on the McDonald's All American rosters the avg point and rebound production is 6.9pts and 4.5 rebounds respectively. If you remove Anthony Bennett (16.1 and 8) and Isaiah Austin (13.2 and 8.6) from the list both categories drop significantly.
Zeus/Jarrett/Ashley are averaging 6.5pts and 5 rebounds.
Therefore I would argue that our three are developing quite nicely!
There is certainly some truth to the thought that Miller has done less with more than just about any coach in the conference. While I think CSM is a better basketball coach than Lane Kiffin is as a football coach... I think the comparisons have merit.
CSM may have won the public over with his response in the press conference after the UCLA loss... but he's certainly underperformed this season. A six seed? With the talent on this roster? Wow. That's a lot lower than it should be. Talent wise, we should be a 2 or a 3 seed. Throw in some east coast bias... maybe a 4 seed. But this team is seeded correctly as a six seed (okay, maybe we deserved a 5 seed, but that's still under performing). We're simply not that good... which is odd, b/c we have the talent and size to beat anyone. Seems to me, that should be on the coaching staff.
Bear Down Arizona
Yeah Ben, I am ok assigning a lot of the blame for the under achievement to the coaching staff this year. I think there many things they could have done better. Of course some must go to the players too. But I am not willing to make these wild accusations that say Miller gets out coached and out recruited by the majority of the other Pac 12 coaches.
As for the above Xavier tourney record (thx WK), it doesn't matter how you get the wins, he has 2 elite 8's and a sweet 16. A W is a W is a W all day long. Those are legit and you can't take them away from him. You conveniently failed to mention the dismantling of Duke, one shot away from beating Uconn eventual national champs, taking out very good Texas and Memphis teams along the way. I suppose you will not give Miller any credit there. Probably give it all to Dwill right?
As for your 12 negative players above WK, you can't count Horne, Jacobsen, Judkins, Shumpert, Bejerano against him. He didn't recruit any of those guys and had very little time to work with them. He was stuck with them and in any other time over the past 30 years of AZ basketball wouldn't have made it as water boys (except Horne). Horne actually had his best year (Sr.) under Miller. Again Momo was developing just fine but decided to leave. Mayes and Chol may be a little behind but plenty of time to pull out a decent college career. BA, Zeus, GJ are all right on target. So I will give you one of those guys Knat as a bust.
I noted that CSM has done less with more than other coaches. I also mentioned that the roster has the talent to be a two seed... while we ended up performing poorly and only deserve a 6 seed. Clearly the roster is talented. That's due to CSM's efforts on the recruiting trail. So I'm definitely not saying that he's been out done on the recruiting trail. No way. Obviously he's done well recruiting.
Coaching this team this year is a bit of a different story. Staying with Lyons too long. Not benching Lyons to send the message that his selfish play is unacceptable... not playing the bench players in earlier in the season. Not going more than 8 deep when the roster could easily support going 9 or 10 deep... Lots of stuff, but I think the job he's done regarding Mark Lyons has been the biggest factor in this team failing to play as well as they should. Lyons is a very talented player. But he needed to be told something or shown something that CSM didn't do. Why the hell is he still jacking up 3's with 25+ seconds left on the shot clock... so frustrating. The talent is there. The struggles are on the coaching staff this year.
Some good points being made here, as well as some off the wall stuff. 75% of the players listed in this thread were Olson players. Besides, Miller got more out of Jamelle Horne in a single season than his previous 3 years. There's no doubt Arizona underachieved somewhat in the Pac 12 season, but last I checked the Cats are 25-7. If that's a "bad" year, then we can officially say that Miller has saved the program by bringing Arizona back from the brink. As far as player development, every single player has improved since the start of this season. Lyons is the only one who is the same but you don't "develop" fifth year senior transfers. You basically get what you e been inherited at that point.
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